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Man of Troy

Well, it appears as though the Rolen for Glaus swap is going to happen. I've never been a huge Troy Glaus fan, but I can't shake the impression that this trade favors the Cards. We don't know all the details yet but, at first glance, it appears that the Cards got the better end of this one.

For the last 3 seasons, Glaus has been the superior player in almost every conceivable way. Rolen is still the superior defender, but Glaus' offense has been vastly superior to Rolen's each of the last 3 seasons - enough so to offset the relative deficit in Glaus' defense. Glaus is 16 months younger than Rolen, and his contract expires sooner than Rolen's does. There is the issue w/ Glaus' plantar fascitis but Rolen, as we are all too aware, has issues w/ both shoulders.

In LB's comments yesterday , he used the two players' OPS over the last 3 seasons to make the case that Glaus is the superior offensive player (or at least has been). Here are their other 2007 numbers:

VORP EqA WS WPA RC/27 WARP1
Rolen 4.1 .257 11 -0.73 4.42 4.1
Glaus 20.5 .281 14 0.97 6.38 4.0

The only numbers that are close, and in Rolen's favor, is WARP1 which is largely dependent on BP's analysis of the two players' defense. Rolen's defense keeps the comparison close and, perhaps, is the reason the Cards were able to get this trade done. By every offensive measure, the two players weren't even close in 2007.

How about over the last 3 years?

VORP EqA WS WPA RC/27 WARP1
Rolen 40.1 .266 38 0.17 5.24 14.7
Glaus 87.3 .285 63 2.17 6.42 15.2

It should be pointed out that VORP, WS, WPA, and WARP1 are sums of the 3 years' totals. EqA and RC/27, because they are rate statistics, are unweighted averages. Again, Rolen's defense enables him to keep the comparison close according to WARP1, but you should notice that THT's Win Shares, which also incorporates defense, isn't. The two sources have different means of comparing defense and incorporating its value into a player's overall value. Offensively, over the last 3 years, Glaus has been by far the superior player.

What about their projections for next year? The ZIPS, CHONE, and Bill James projections are out but PECOTA isn't so I'm going to use its projections for 2008 prior to last season. You'll notice that its projection can't take into account both players' injuries in '07 so I would expect this year's PECOTA projection to be less sanguine than these are.

Here are the two players' OPS's from the 4 sets of projections:

ZIPS CHONE James PECOTA
Rolen .728 .802 .842 .857
Glaus .819 .854 .851 .899

All 4 sets of projections believe Glaus will have the better '08 as well. In fact, only the James projections are within 40 pts. of OPS. So, Glaus was better in '07. He was better from '05-'07 and 4 sets of projections anticipate he'll be better in '08. It's true that he's played in more hitter-friendly ballparks than Rolen has but he's also played in a tougher pitching league. He's also been facing the Red Sox and Yankees' pitching 30 times per year...er, I mean, the Red Sox pitching 15 times per year. It's difficult for me to conclude, therefore, that Glaus ISN'T the better player right now.

How about defense? Here are `07's numbers:

FRAA rate PMR ratio RZR +/-
Rolen 16 115 102.92 .742 +15
Glaus 3 103 102.78 .706 +9

FYI, the "Rate" stat used above comes from the Davenport Translations at BP. The +/- is courtesy of the Fielding Bible. From this, we should get that Rolen is better defensively but it's really pretty close. BP has him a good bit above Glaus but PMR, THT, and the Fielding Bible all have them being pretty comparable and PMR shows barely any difference at all. So, is Rolen better defensively? Unquestionably. But he's not that much better - certainly not enough to offset the difference, right now, in the two players' offense.

Add all this up, the fact that Glaus is slightly younger, and the fact that his contract will be on the books for at least 1 year less than Rolen's and it's pretty clear to me that, right now, Glaus is the better player. He's gonna strike out more than Rolen, to be sure. At some point people will complain about a K w/ a runner on 3rd and 1 out in a game we lose to Pittsburgh 3-2. But he is better overall than Rolen is right now.

Rolen is owed $36 M over the next 3 years. Glaus is owed $12.75 M in '08 and he has a player option for '09 at $11.25 M. The word is that the Cards will have to send some dough to the Jays to complete the deal. Considering the relative players' values and the fact that Rolen is owed at least an extra year and $12 M, that's hardly surprising. Glaus' contract is really a pretty good one for the Cards. Yes, he's expensive this year but, if he plays well, he'll likely opt out of the '09 contract and become a free agent. The Cards will then be out from under that contract. If he decides to pick up his player option, the Cards still save a year and $12 M (or a little less based on the amount that the Cards send north).

Will Glaus have to be enticed to waive his no-trade clause? Goold says that the Cards would have to pick up the option in order to make the trade happen. Unless I'm wrong that the option is Glaus', this comment makes no sense. Perhaps he means that the Cards would guarantee the 2nd year? That would seem to reduce, not increase, the value of the contract as Glaus can now opt out if he wants or, if he doesn't, force the Cards to pay the money anyway. Maybe he would want to add a million or two to the '09 player option in order to do the deal. It ought to be worth it to him to agree to the deal just to get off the astroturf and come to the weaker league 1 year before being able to become a free agent once again.

Finally, yesterday LB wrote that this trade adds "another leg for the larussa-runs-the-club theory to stand on" and some took umbrage with that quote in the thread. I tend to agree w/ LB that this is LaRussa's type of trade. Though it does help the club in the long run, as I've pointed out it also helps the club in the short run. What's wrong w/ that? Nothing, but...

Make no mistake about it, Mo could have traded Rolen long ago and gotten less (much less) than Glaus while also dumping most, if not all, of the remaining contract on the other team. In other words, he could've dumped Rolen and his contract on somebody else if he'd been willing to take little or nothing in return. He may have even been able to get a decent or better prospect in return. The benefit of that endeavor would have been that it would've saved the team at least $24 M. It would've opened up an additional $11.25 M in '09 that the team could've spent on something else. It would've opened a hole at 3B for Craig or Freese in '09 if either of them are ready. It's likely, instead, that Glaus will be playing 3B for the Cards in '09.

Trading Rolen for Glaus, as opposed to trading him for a prospect, or for a fungo bat to be named later, will gain the team 4-5 wins this year in all likelihood. Are we now a contender? No, b/c it's a negligible gain this year over Rolen and we weren't a contender w/ Rolen. Still, LaRussa would've never allowed Rolen to be traded for a prospect. He clearly insisted on getting back a player who can help the team this year. Which players have been mentioned in Rolen rumors beside Glaus? It's always been established major league players, never prospects (except in blogs or message boards). So I echo LB's sentiment from yesterday that he'd rather have Andy LaRoche.

Still, all in all, this is a good trade for the Cards. It's not ideal. Some will complain about Glaus' use of PED's. Why? No one complained about re-signing Ryan Franklin! He took them when he was with the Angels, at least 4 years ago. His success in '05 and '06 w/ the Jays had nothing to do w/ `roids. Sure, it's another Angel on the roster but at least Ed Wade signed Darin Erstad. BTW, while we're commenting on the Angel-ification of the Cards' roster, take a look at the left side of the infield up in Toronto!

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No $$$ sent from STL to TOR
After coming home from a fun night at the bars in Chicago, there's a new VEB post up! Great times!

Saw this on espn.com:
"According to a source with knowledge of the trade, the Cardinals only signed off on the deal after Glaus agreed to exercise his $11.25 million option for 2009. St. Louis management didn't want to give up three years of Rolen for only one year of Glaus, so Glaus had to commit to the option year as part of the deal.

Both players were also required to waive no-trade clauses.

A source told ESPN.com's Jayson Stark that Toronto will be responsible for the three years and $33 million left on Rolen's contract, while St. Louis will assume the $24.5 million owed Glaus through 2009. Since no cash is involved in the trade, it appears that no approval from commissioner Bud Selig's office is required."

Wow! Another positive in the Cards' favor! I'm still holding my breath that we don't find out there are other players involved. As for how things appear right now, I'm strongly encouraged. Score points for Mozeliak!

by airhad on Jan 13, 2008 3:01 AM EST   0 recs

I like the deal more now
Can't believe we got Glaus for Rolen without sending money to Toronto.

>>According to a source with knowledge of the trade, the Cardinals only signed off on the deal after Glaus agreed to exercise his $11.25 million option for 2009<<

Seems odd given Glaus's age, injury history and the club's avowed desire to commit to player development ... unless one runs the transaction through the LaRussa prism.  2009 happens to be the last year of TLR's contract.  The TLR strategy needs three studs to go with his scrubs: Pujols-Glaus-Rasmus are the new trio.  If Glaus lights up NL pitching in 2008 AND stays healthy, we'll come out ahead on the 2009 option.  Either Glaus really wanted out of Toronto or the guy is not all that sure about his health.

by jjray on Jan 13, 2008 6:18 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Know what turf toe is?
Not asked sarcastically; I frankly don't understand it from a medical perspective.  However, I know that it's painful enough that yes, in all likelihood, "Glaus really wanted out of Toronto."

by StanTheManFan on Jan 13, 2008 11:07 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Turf Toe
As far as I understand it, it's basically just a sprained toe.  It's just like a sprain of any other joint; it's very painful and debilitating, much like a high ankle sprain or something along those lines.  Someone with more knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong.  

I believe the reason it's called 'turf toe' is because of the prevalence of the injury among players on artificial turf, due to the hard subsurface.  

It also seems to be unusually difficult to recover from.  Football players often miss most of a year with turf toe.  Not sure why it takes so long, but it's definitely nothing to laugh at.  

You little punks think you own this town.

by the red baron on Jan 13, 2008 12:38 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Glaus had to commit to the deal?
Aren't we better off if he has the ability to exercise his option? Wow! The LaRussa influence is evident there!

by houstoncardinal on Jan 13, 2008 1:10 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Upon further review, it was a shrewd move
>>Aren't we better off if he has the ability to exercise his option? Wow! The LaRussa influence is evident there!<<

I've thought about it some more and now see the wisdom of our bargaining position with Toronto.  If Glaus gets hurt or goes into wholesale regression, he was going to exercise his option and the Cards would be on the hook regardless.  If he rakes in the NL and stays healthy, he opts out.  Thus, there is no risk of loss to the Cards by having the option year contractually locked in up front.  They were going to be on the hook for that option under any bad scenario.  It's just a win for the Cards.  I'm just shocked we not only didn't send money to Toronto but also extracted a concession from Glaus.  Kudos to Mozeliak on this one.  Other than forcing the team to move Rolen through his feud with the player, TLR probably had nothing to do with the negotiations with Toronto.

by jjray on Jan 13, 2008 1:32 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Amen
Glad to see someone finally gets it.  Great move by the Cards to force Glaus' early exercise.

by South Side Cards Fan on Jan 13, 2008 2:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Nice analysis
Of course it flies in the face of public opinion around here, but I definately like your angle and definately think there's some probability this might actually be the case.

Oh, who am I kidding.  Mo is an idiot who does whatever his bosses (and even his employees) tell him to do.  (/sarcasm)

by Big Red on Jan 13, 2008 2:02 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

The problem we may face is
if Flood refuses to report to Toronto.
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 13, 2008 3:20 AM EST   0 recs

he wouldn't dare,,,
would he??
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2008 3:43 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Why
Why would he do that, if he refuses then he's back with his best bud LaRussa.

by mikedallas23 on Jan 13, 2008 9:33 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

If you look at UZR
he hasn't been superior to Rolen in overall value the last three seasons.

The three year splits are kind of silly though. This is all based on medical info that no one here presumably has access to. But the Jays do. The point is that we've traded upside for certainty and no clubhouse issues. If I'm the Cardinals I'd like to keep all the upside I can find, even if that comes with big risks.

And Hardcore, why would Rolen waive his NTC and then not report? That doesn't make any sense to me.

by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 4:14 AM EST   0 recs

i don't think of rolen as having any upside
he'll be 33 next year and had 3 shoulder surgeries in 27 months. his upside is a slugging average close to .500 --- and that represents glaus's downside. the cards do lose some defense, but how much --- 10 runs at the outside? i'm willing to bet that glaus's bat will more than make up the difference.

if nothing else, the contracts make this trade a no-brainer. they're currently on the hook for the age 33 through 35 seasons of an ex-superstar. they're trading that for the age 31 and age 32 seasons of a near-peak star.

by lboros on Jan 13, 2008 6:14 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

It depends on if he'll
hit like he did in 2006 again. Glaus hasn't put up a .300 EQA since 2004, though he's been close the last three years.

If UZR is to be believed, or PMR from 2005 or 2006, there is a substantial difference in defense. Much more than a win. It totally depends on the metric du jour, but those, especially UZR, are the ones I trust.

Apparently the Jays' internal metrics agree (and supposedly Ricciardi is trying to build the next great defense or something), or they don't take the gamble. Their doctors will agree as well if he the deal goes through (I guess the worst case is the deal not happening now, no matter how you feel about the trade).

I'm not sure what the Cardinals metrics or doctors say about Rolen, given that I don't think that was the basis for the trade.

Who knows, it's all medical and anything on that is entirely speculative. But the Jays have doctors too, and no ulterior motives.

by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 9:20 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

UZR is an outlier
granted, it's a very reliable metric --- i'm not discounting it. but dewan's +- system is at least as well regarded, and it has glaus as well above average, and nearly as good as rolen for the last 3 years. two other well-regarded metrics that use batted-ball data, pinto's PMR and david gassko's RZR, agree w dewan for 2007.

each of those three systems gives rolen less than a 1-win advantage with the glove; UZR gives rolen about a 2.5-win advantage. i'm not saying that UZR is wrong --- i have no basis for saying one way or the other --- but it is in the minority.

where EqA is concerned, i'll take my chances w/ glaus, who has been at .280 or above for 4 years in a row. rolen's been in the .250 range 2 of the last 3 seasons. at his age, with his health record, i don't see him returning to .300.

by lboros on Jan 13, 2008 10:23 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

And PMR doesn't
agree historically. Defensive numbers are prone to fluctuation, and I trust MGL with a variable like turf more than the other systems.

Where does your +/- data come from? Dewan gives Rolen a +47 and Glaus a -25 from 2003-2005, so that would be a serious swing. Dial's ZR likes Rolen much more.

I don't see him returning there either, but if he does he's a hell of a lot better than Glaus.

What this boils down to for me is that Ricciardi isn't a clown, and the Cardinals aren't working from an objective standpoint here. Rolen has to go. This might be the best of a bad situation, but that doesn't mean I like the situation or the trade in a vacuum.

by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 10:51 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Rolen kills
Glaus in RZR back to 2005, from eyeballing it, with the exception of OOZ plays in 2007. I dunno, I'm finding a consensus that mimics conventional wisdom on the two.

by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 10:55 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

plus / minus data
are at http://www.fieldingbible.com/. go to the "plus/minus" dropdown, and you can get the figures from there. per those figures, in 2006 glaus actually beat rolen, +10 to +8. in 2007 rolen beat glaus +15 to +9. their playing time was essentially equal in those two years.

RZR has glaus and rolen dead even for 2007, both 14 runs better than average. rolen had a better zone rating, but glaus got to 10 more out-of-zone balls. (see this spreadsheet: http://home.comcast.net/~briankaat/zonecombo2007.xls.) rolen was about 20 runs better than glaus on RZR in 2006.

there's no argument about which guy is a better fielder ---- obviously it's rolen. but there's very mixed evidence about the magnitude of rolen's advantage. the most favorable scenario has rolen at about +30 runs; a more balanced perspective would put rolen at about +15. if you think rolen's bat will be within 15 runs of glaus's bat, then the cardinals come out behind on the deal in 2008 . . . .

but even if that's true --- and i'm certainly not conceding it --- you still have to factor in the contracts. the cards are better off with glaus's shorter contract, even if the exchange costs them a win or two in 2008. they're probably not going anywhere in 2008 no matter who players 3d base, but they might be going somewhere in 2010 --- and they're more likely to do that if they don't have 35-year-old scott rolen soaking up 1/10th of the payroll.

by lboros on Jan 13, 2008 11:51 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

They are only
committed to Pujols and Carpenter in 2010. Obviously that will change, but there is room for a gamble with all the money coming off the books after next year, which I think Rolen is.

I'd want to trade Rolen if nobody wanted him. The fact that they do (and there was supposedly an offer on the table from the Brewers -- Doug Melvin isn't an idiot either) makes me think that the situation isn't so dire, and that the Cardinals are acting on directive from the wrong person.

by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 12:06 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

i agree that tony's driving the action here
and that chafes. but it's still a good trade. wrong reasons, but right move.

by lboros on Jan 13, 2008 12:12 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

lboros
Any actual evidence or links that teams were willing to part with good young players for Rolen only to have the Cardinals overturn such deals? Or that there were so many good offers for him but Tony still shut them all down?
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 13, 2008 12:57 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

If airhad is right
here then Tony's influence is significant. If it is correct that Glaus had to agree to exercise his player option in order to get the Cards to agree to the deal, that's evidence enough that the Cards would rather have a 32, going on 33, year old 3B w/ some history of injuries than take a chance on a young player such as Craig, Freese, or anyone we might trade for.

We had a chance to trade 3 years of Rolen for 1 year of Glaus, or should I say 3 years of Rolen's contract for 1 year of Glaus' and we chose 2 years of Glaus'. That's 1 more feather in the veterans-preferred cap!

by houstoncardinal on Jan 13, 2008 1:16 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I don't think that means TLR
was in on it. I don't disagree that the TLR/Rolen spat played a pivotal role but I'd rather have 2 years of Glaus at a known rate than bet that Freese or Craig will be ready by 09. Neither is a can't miss prospect and Glaus isn't that old. I think this was just a smart trade by Mozeliak.

by azruavatar on Jan 13, 2008 1:21 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I agree with that...
I really like Freese, but he hasn't played above A-level yet, and there is a question whether Craig has the defense to stay at the 3B position. Neither one is on the cusp of breaking through the majors yet, and getting a transition guy like Gaus is completely unexpected, especially in a straight up swap in the same position the Cards are giving up. Add to that fact St. Louis not giving up any money in a Rolan deal (!), and this keeps looking like a nice win for Mo.

 

by Forsch31 on Jan 13, 2008 9:44 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

beano, you misunderstand me
i like the trade. and i'm not saying tony quashed any deals. i'm saying tony forced a rolen trade to happen because he wasn't willing to live with a player who openly disliked him. he deliberately provoked rolen and turned a bad relationship into an unliveable one.

i've said this over and over --- i think rolen and la russa are equally to blame for the state of their relationship, but i think la russa's comments this off-season pushed things past the point of no return and left the team in a terrible position. if this trade goes through, the team will be off the hook ---- in spite of tony's poor handling of the situation.

by lboros on Jan 13, 2008 2:28 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

and rolen's on the books thru 2010
they are committed to him for the next 3 years.

by lboros on Jan 13, 2008 12:21 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Not if they
trade him.

Dewan has Rolen at +50 for 2005-2007, and +23 for 2006-2007. He has him at +16 for 2005 in the book. Something's wrong there.

Also, Glaus is +19 from 2006-2007, and terrible off the turf in 2005. Enough (-12, which is in line with his previous performance) to drop him off the 2005-2007 leaderboard.

I'll go with MGL's numbers which are consistent.

by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 12:33 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah...
but if he comes out and bombs again...they won't be able to give him away.  Now, he's still seen as having some chance of returning to previous levels.

Mo couldn't have done any better in this situation, he got 1 year shaved off a big contract.  He got a younger player, much more likely to make a full recovery from surgery, and probably made a gain (even if it is marginal) to the team as it currently stands.

Nobody is disputing that a 100% Rolen, is better than a 100% Glaus.  The chances of Rolen getting back there are slim to none, and this team desperately needed the offense.

This team is going to be giving major at bats to "hitters" like Molina, Izturis, Kennedy, Miles...they needed the offense.

Mo did a great job here.

"You're either rebuilding for something special, or you're on the verge of something special. To be in between is foolish." Billy Beane

by bobbyballgame1 on Jan 13, 2008 1:10 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Toronto disagrees
with you about his chances being slim to none (and he doesn't have to be MV3 Rolen to be better than Glaus). You should probably let them know, I guess.

We don't "need a hitter". The team needs to either save runs or score runs. Either one is fine with me.  Glaus will probably have a net positive effect, but he can't match Rolen's if he's somewhat healthy.

I don't care about the payroll flexibility. They have tons of money coming off the books, and are pissing away what they do have on crap like Izturis, Miles and Pineiro. There's over half Rolen's salary right there.

by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 1:29 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm glad you
chimed in with a worthless post that addresses nothing I said.

by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 1:44 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I disagree with nearly everything you said
We don't need a hitter?  Really?  Last year, the Cards ranked 11 out of 16 MLB teams in runs scored, 13th in HRs, and 14th in SLG%.  Also, haven't we been struggling since 2004 to find a legit power hitter to give Albert some lineup protection?

I care about payroll flexibility.  Lots, actually.  Glaus is cheaper with a shorter contract and represents an offensive upgrade and only a minute downgrade from Rolen.  Rolen will never return to 2004 form -- that was 4 years and two shoulder surgeries ago.  Its gone; poof!  

We aren't "pissing away" money on Izturis (isn't he a one year deal?) b/c he's a good fielder who can save runs -- something you are concerned about.  We aren't pissing away money on Pineiro because we don't exactly have a glut of reliable starting pitching.  Pineiro, although not spectacular, is reliable and will eat innings at a league average(ish) clip.  

The only thing I agree with is Miles -- we are pissing money away on Miles.

by Ray Lankford on Jan 13, 2008 3:02 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I don't care
where the value comes from. There are two ways to outscore your opponents. Up your RS or up your RA. Doesn't really matter to me, though I might prefer to make the pitching look better in a down year.

The Cardinals have less than $30 million committed in 2010. There is room to make a gamble on Rolen, but if you disagree that he's a good gamble, that's fine. Just don't make it sound like we need to money.

Joel Pineiro hasn't eaten innings at a league average clip since 2004. He's a replacement level player according to projections.

Cesar Izturis is a replacement player as well. Average defense, and a .220 EQA. Brendan Ryan can do better for pennies on the dollar. Even if he flops and is "as bad" who cares? No real downside.

Glad we can agree about Miles.

by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 3:28 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

PLH903
So do you really want 3 more years of Rolen?

I see his inability to stay healty and I think it is a waste to have him around 3 more years.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 13, 2008 3:44 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'd trade him
for Andy LaRoche without really thinking about it.

However, I'm of the opinion that he comes close to Glaus when you factor in defense. That lets you take a gamble on him being a 7 win player again.

FWIW, I don't think Craig will stick at 3B (love the bat), and Freese isn't a good a prospect as, let's say, Chris Sabo. I think Chris Truby is much more likely.

I don't know, dude. I'm not a doctor. I don't like that he's being traded because of high school bullshit (though I might ask for a trade if I got trashed in the press by my manager -- and I've never said a word).

I'd say no, get what you can for him from what I know. He was probably worth his contract last year if you take UZR at face value, but I don't think he's likely to stay on the field.

With teams showing interest, I want to find the logic behind that. I see their reasoning, and trust that they are going on projections and medical data, and the Cardinals are going on he said/she said. That doesn't sit well.

by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 3:56 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'll add that
this is obviously an extreme minority position, and that's about as good of a summary of my position as I'll post.

I've repeated myself a bunch of times, so I'll stop for now.

by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 4:06 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Why...
The smart ass comment?

"with you about his chances being slim to none (and he doesn't have to be MV3 Rolen to be better than Glaus). You should probably let them know, I guess."

I'm glad Toronto doesn't agree with me, now they have the commitment of 3 years to Rolen and his shot shoulder.

Pujols would have likely never seen a pitch to hit all year with 8HR Rolen batting behind him.

"You're either rebuilding for something special, or you're on the verge of something special. To be in between is foolish." Billy Beane

by bobbyballgame1 on Jan 13, 2008 10:11 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm not trying
to be a smartass, and I actually agree with your posts more often than not, but you saying he is "shot" without evidence, and the Jays giving him a physical and $36M... let's just say one of those things actually carries some weight.

by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 10:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

UZR is not an outlier
Sorry, but UZR is not the outlier.  UZR thinks he has been a uniformly bad 3B.  Dial's adjusted ZR agrees.  Scouts agree.  His last two managers agree.  Fans in general agree.

The only person who doesn't agree is BIS's scorer with the Blue Jays, whose data has made him look like a competent 3B in PMR and +/-, the two metrics which use BIS's PBP data rather than Stats Inc's, the past two years, where before they agreed with the consensus that he was a poor defender.

by cpebbles on Jan 13, 2008 10:06 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

of the 4 major metrics for 2007
only one --- UZR --- rated glaus as a negative fielder. the other three (RZR, PMR, and dewan) had him as above average. even davenport (which i don't generally trust) rates glaus as an above average fielder for the last two years. he had a good year with the glove in 2007. every metric agrees on it --- except UZR.

by lboros on Jan 13, 2008 11:03 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

RZR
RZR is not an advanced metric and is not accepted as one of the better defensive metrics.  It's essentially the raw BIS data that goes into PMR and +/-, without any revisions save for removing out-of-zone plays.  You have Davenport, which nobody believes, and three systems all built around the same data--data which conflicts with not only the Stats Inc-based defensive metrics, but also the scouting report, Glaus's general reputation, and the BIS-based metrics from before Glaus got matched up with that one particular scorer in Toronto.

PMR and UZR are in conflict here.  Supporting PMR are DTs and a couple of metrics built around the same data.  Supporting UZR are his defensive reputation throughout baseball, his history as a fielder, and the rule that players' defense does not tend to improve markedly over the age of 30.  I think it's pretty clear that the discrepancy in data is with BIS's scorer.

by cpebbles on Jan 13, 2008 11:48 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Mo is making the best of a bad situation
Arguably you would want to wait and trade Rolen when his value has increased (can it get lower?), but given Rolen and LaRussa's desire to pre-empt this strategy, this is a good outcome.  How often does Glaus pop-up?  

Two thoughts

  1.  I've seen several comments that we are saving $12 million.  I guess that is true if we expect to play without a third basemen in 2010.  Aren't we really just gaining some payroll flexibility?  What we've done is give ourselves a choice of playing with Freese/other rookie or spending big bucks on a free agent.
  2.  Isn't Plantar Fascitis a common problem for those doing PEDs?  Isn't this the problem McGwire struggled with in Oakland for years?  If that is the case, I worry that Glaus will break down earlier in his career making the age differential moot.

by The Duke on Jan 13, 2008 8:16 AM EST   0 recs

I have to say...
I've never heard a connection made between PEDs and Plantar Fascitis.  Hell, both my dad and I have ended up with it and I can assure you there hasn't been a whole hell of a lot of HGH swirling around the household.

by mynameistyler on Jan 13, 2008 9:05 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I think you're thinking of
patellar tendinitis. That's what the Big Redhead had.

But of course, he never took steroids.

by 26thMan on Jan 13, 2008 10:55 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Plantar vs patellar
I meant Plantar.  I don't think anyone has made a causal connection yet, but Mcgwire and Giambi both had the problem.  On patellar, Bonds, Mcgwire and Ankiel had that problem I believe.

Perhaps Silent Bob could weigh in.

by The Duke on Jan 13, 2008 11:29 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm not a DR.
nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but how would Plantar Fascitis (foot area?) be associated with PED's (taking shots in the foot?)?

McGwire is one possible case that is a coincidence?  Which other implicated players have this problem?

Not trying to be a smart arse....just curious

"Character may be manifested in the great moments, but it is made in the small ones." - Phillips Brooks

by bparker on Jan 13, 2008 8:56 AM EST   0 recs

See ya Scotty.....
I think only time will tell on this transaction as to who comes out best with injuries to both players being major issues. Which Glaus will we see...33 errors, 300 ABs or the 00-02 edition? Did the PEDS finally take their toll?

I was OK with Glaus (whom I thought we might trade for last Aug.,  before the PED accusations) but now I kinda feel just got handed Gary Gaetti or Pete Guerrero again for whatever reason. Except the Rat could actually play a little third base.

More Angels.

All things being equal, Id rather have a healthy Rolen than a healthy Glaus and have a happy TLR wearing pinstripes or a retired TLR running an animal care shelter raking in donations from sympathetic ballplayers.

People who see it as all business that yields a bottom line and numbers will be fairly happy with this and the people who see it as typical fans probably wont.

If we can't be good, can we at least be lucky?

by cardschinmusic on Jan 13, 2008 9:11 AM EST   0 recs

Plantar Faciais
Is considered the runner's disease (alot of runners suffer from it).  Remember, also, that Albert chronically suffers from it.  I too have had problems with it (it really sucks...imagine a burning, pulsating pain in your foot that sticks around for months).  But Glaus has now had surgery on it and hopefully that will put the problem in the rear view mirror.  D.GOOCH
Cardinals, Cardinals, Cardinals!

by GOOCH24 on Jan 13, 2008 9:20 AM EST   0 recs

My brother has suffered from it as well
and he's evidence that it's not caused by steroids!

by houstoncardinal on Jan 13, 2008 1:17 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Man...
That comment really needs a photo attached to it. :-)

by Forsch31 on Jan 13, 2008 9:47 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Question
If we want to flip Glaus for prospects at some point in the next 2 years does he have to waive his no-trade clause again?

by mikedallas23 on Jan 13, 2008 9:38 AM EST   0 recs

A blast from the past...
A blast from the past from the Philadelphia Daily News:

"In Philadelphia, Rolen also had his fair share of feuds with former manager Larry Bowa, teammates and eventually the fans. A month before his trade, a teammate called Rolen a 'cancer' in the clubhouse."

I hope John Gibbons and the Blue Jays fans enjoy their new prima donna!

by HalfMagic on Jan 13, 2008 9:41 AM EST   0 recs

Look -- these are Philadelphia sports writers
you're talking about here.  They have long knives and long memories, and they are NEVER wrong, at least in their own minds.  Failing to rip Rolen when they have a chance would be a dereliction of (what they see as) their duty to the similarly hyena-like among their readers, which apparently are the subset of their readership they care about.

I am generally highly regarded in my job, both by my higher-ups and a strong majority (documented) of the people who work for me, but I was labeled "scum" in one fairly prominent blog by the holder of a minority opinion.  Nobody earns a 100% personality approval rating if they're actually doing anything, and Rolen certainly was doing something; he plays baseball, after all.  I'm not saying that Rolen was not a "cancer in the clubhouse" in Philadelphia, but I would give exactly zero credibility to this particular report.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 13, 2008 11:19 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Take the
zero substance comments to Cards Talk, or explain why you disagree with someone. You're shitting on the thread.

by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 1:50 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

since when
did this place become so damn pissy? I cannot wait for the season to start so we can get back to having some fun on here. Do we now have to make sure  that everything we post on here conforms to everybody else's idea of substance?
"Show me a guy who takes his time on the mound and I'll show you a damned loser." - Leo Durocher

by mattyfrommo on Jan 13, 2008 4:01 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Just once, ab
I'd like to read something you've posted that wasn't simply an obnoxious comment completely unsupported by any kind of evidence or 2nd-grade or above thought process.  Is it completely impossible for you to:
  1.  post something that isn't completely obnoxious and insulting to somebody AND
  2.  support it with some kind of facts or even theories as to what you're basing your opinion on
There are several points made in the community guidelines to which you should refer before you return to post.  I'll identify just a couple:
  1. " attack the opinion, not the person. a guy isn't an idiot simply because he disagrees with you. if you think flawed logic, faulty premises, and/or factual errors underlie his opinion, point those things out; try to persuade him (and the rest of us) that your view of things makes more sense. the entire community can learn a lot from that type of exchange. but we learn nothing --- and you make yourself look stupid --- when you simply taunt your adversary or call him names. flame wars will not be tolerated."
  2.  "what is my true motive in posting? there's a difference between making a critical point and pounding your fists on the floor. if all you have to offer is the latter, do not post. "
  3.  "can i back up my criticisms with some evidence and a line of reasoning? when scott rolen struggled early in the 2006 playoffs, we got dozens of angry rants about how rolen is a habitual choker with a longstanding history of playoff failure. those posts were factually untrue and easily disproven; they detracted from the discussion about rolen's struggles, rather than adding to it. don't post criticism that you can't back up;"

by houstoncardinal on Jan 13, 2008 5:31 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Plantar Faciais
Plantar IS a stress condition common to runners. If Glaus's condition was advanced enough to require surgery it could remain an issue as surgery is not always effective in the long term. But for a baseball player, I don't think the chances of it being debilitating are that high. There are enough treatment options to keep him well enough to play baseball. He may never be able to run the Boston Marathon, but who cares. At minimum, the condition is much less risky than Rolen's. (Note: I, too, am neither a runner nor a Holiday Inn guest, but I have logged many, many miles as a runner.)

by jimmyv on Jan 13, 2008 10:14 AM EST   0 recs

Does anyone
realize that yesterday passed without even one mention of a Chris Duncan trade. Has that happened before in the last three months?

by ridgesee on Jan 13, 2008 10:38 AM EST   0 recs

Nailed it in the 2nd to last paragraph.
"Trading Rolen for Glaus, as opposed to trading him for a prospect, or for a fungo bat to be named later, will gain the team 4-5 wins this year in all likelihood. Are we now a contender? No, b/c it's a negligible gain this year over Rolen and we weren't a contender w/ Rolen. " My sentiments exactly. I like Rolen - a lot. I like the way he handled himself during the winter meetings and Tony's dumbassitude. I like the way he plays the game. This trade is in my mind, like swapping a Honda for a Toyota. Both pretty decent cars, not much difference - and one is just about as likely to break down as the other. But, let's look the day in the face. We're not, by any means, a contender on paper. If this is a marginal improvement, but why then, did they do it? Besides the business, long term reasons (that I like by the way). Because Tony LaRussa runs the Cardinals? And he's a stuck in his ways, do things like they've always been done kind of guy? He didn't want to deal with Scott on a man to man basis, and wrote him a letter? WTF was that? I cannot wait until 2010, when the rebuilding is probably going to be 90% finished, and management realizes that the manager needs to be rebuilt. Best of luck to Scott in Toronto! Troy, in the immortal words of my buddy "Don't step on your crank."
"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Jan 13, 2008 10:39 AM EST   0 recs

Yes
However, what if they make another move that nets us 4-5 wins?
"You're either rebuilding for something special, or you're on the verge of something special. To be in between is foolish." Billy Beane

by bobbyballgame1 on Jan 13, 2008 1:12 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

It's 4-5 wins over trading
Rolen for a prospect. It's not 4-5 wins over keeping Rolen. Glaus gains us about a win, maybe 2 at the most, this year and next. If we had traded Rolen for a AA pitcher or someone else who isn't ready, Spiezio and others become the 3B. They're basically replacement level players and Glaus is worth 4-5 wins over replacement -- Not 4-5 wins over Rolen.

I obviously didn't make that clear and I apologize. It came up later in the thread as well.

by houstoncardinal on Jan 13, 2008 1:29 PM EST to parent up   0 recs