March 14, 2013

THE 12: #9 GET OUR VICK OUT AND GET BALLS DEEP

 

LAST year I said that we should get Michael Vick out of the pocket, in an attempt to keep him healthy and let him do what he’s best at, namely freezing defenses. http://www.yardbarker.com/forum/3/57/discussion/the_12_9_get_our_vick_out_and_go_deep/10412725

He was injured IN the pocket in each of the last two seasons. Nick Foles was also injured IN the pocket. That’s three times in the last two years that one of our starting QB’s was forced to miss games due to injuries sustained in the pocket, so please save all the “But they will get hurt if they leave the pocket” nonsense. Until the line is fixed, our QB’s aren’t exactly safe anywhere.

Why has Philadelphia become so obsessed with trapping QB’s in the pocket? We did this before when we tried to make Randall Cunningham a pocket passer, then Donovan McNabb did it to himself, and now were doing the same thing to Vick. And it’s insane. Any other team with a running QB makes that talent part of the offensive package. Here we try to find ways to ignore it, or minimize it.

We’ve become addicted to handicapping ourselves and making life easier than it should be for our opponents. It sucks to watch other teams try to use every scrap of talent while we sit on it like it’s going to appreciate in value.

*****************************************************************************

THE MEAT:

I watched the NFL Networks “Top 10 Mobile QB’s of All-time”. #10 Donovan McNabb, #4 Michael Vick, #3 Randall Cunningham. Despite all that, we have never emphasized designed plays to utilize these talents. The yards gained by these players came mostly through them escaping pressure, not on designed runs. For a moment it looked like Andy Reid wanted to do that with Vick but then…then there was that damned pocket again.

 

THE MOVE:

Teams should  know that Vick not only has the green light to run out of the option, but that on any given down he may take off on a designed play. It would change things like how opponents prep for us. How they called games against us. Hard to blitz a team when you have to leave a spy. Unless of course you want to borrow a guy from your coverage. THAT would handicap the other guy for a change. 

Couple that with moving DeSean Jackson to the left side (the side where Vick would roll to), and run more deep sideline routes (some honest routes, some clear-outs for the run), and you have the potential to rob a lot of coaches of sleep. (FYI: Exhaustion affects judgment and play-calling.)

It’s simple: Get Vick outside where he can go deep or take off. Do something that Andy Reid never did for him and give him a dump-off guy. That set-up made RG3 a rookie phenom. A less competent Vick having a dump-off guy (Alge Crumpler) in Atlanta led him to an NFC Championship game.  Let’s fight as dirty as the other 31 teams.

13 Comments:
  • I think that's part of the reason Chip Kelly redid his deal and kept him. The issue for me with Vick outside the pocket isn't injuries (like you said he gets hurt everywhere) it's his running choices and his ball security. It always seems like he trying to get more then he can. I'm all for having him run just do it smart, take what the D gives you, and run out of bounds or slide (FEET FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) if he fixes those two things I'm fine with him running but when he's taking huge hits and fumbling is when it becomes a liability and starts to piss off fans.
  • You forgot to add get Mike Vick out and get balls deep into triple coverage. No matter what the plan is if Vick is involved it will lead to failure. Lets not forget the first injury Vick had as the Eagles starter was OUT OF THE POCKET. Vick is only useful out the pocket if he's rolling left. Even an average DCoordinator can take that away.
  • And yet nobody really managed that until 2011 when Reid started keeping Celek in to block. Conversely, Vick all but BUILT Alge Crumpler's career with short dump-offs that Atlanta used to counter the blitz and clear out room for the run game. (More on that soon.)

    But you just strap yourself in for a season of failure, because regardless of the fact that you hate it, Vick IS involved.
  • Mike Vick didn't build anyone's career. It's just so many people don't believe what their eyes have shown them. Tell me in all of Mike Vick's years what has he accomplished? You're wrong about nobody accomplishing the shutdown of Vick rolling left. JJ accomplished it in 2004 by keeping Vick IN THE POCKET AND PREVENTING HIM FROM GOING TO HIS LEFT. The Vikings, Giants, and Bears accomplished the same thing in 2010 AFTER TEAMS GOT TAPE ON VICK AGAIN. As far as Vick being a part of whatever as I mentioned before I don't care as long as he's earned it and that's what he's going to have to do. Why you people are obsessed with giving the reigns to mediocrity is beyond me. It only confirms why fans should just stay fans.
  • 1) Look at Alge Crumpler's career WITH and WITHOUT Vick. That many numbers don't lie. Vick built that.

    2)In that playoff game the Defense played inspired ball and shut down more than just Vick. I don't know if you recall, but Warrick Dunn was KILLING IT that year, and we turned off the ENTIRE Offense.

    3)Teams weren't going after him because they had "tape" on him. He'd been in the league since 2001, EVERYBODY already HAD a ton of tape on him. News Flash! 2010 was NOT Michael Vick's rookie year. What changed was teams blitzing OFF OF that side before he could set up. They even did it last year, thus the sacks by LB's and DB's not DLinemen.

    4)They asked Celek to do more blocking later in 2010 and this year with all the injuries. Note how when Celek's receptions go up, so does Vick's rushing YPC. That's from defenders hesitating.

    5) My guess is Kelly won't ask for as much in-line blocking from his TE, so expect faster decisions from Vick with the ball.

    6) That's all you get for now.
  • 1 Crumpler was in his 30s after Vick left. His play was naturally going to drop off anyway. Not to mention the fact Roddy White's career took off after Vick left. Fun fact for you! Mike Vick's only 1000 yard receiver is Desean Jackson and the truth is that's not completely accurate considering Jackson got some of those yards without Vick. In other words Vick is a wide receiver killer.

    2 the key to that game was the containment of Mike Vick. He had nowhere to run and the Eagles forced him to be a pocket passer. The defense was inspired, but the gameplan was flawless. You can try to downplay Jim Johnson's contribution if you like, but he had much to do with what happened in that game.

    3 everyone had tape on Atlanta Mike Vick. Dusty old tape from a team he no longer played for. What you fail to realize is that Mike Vick for the beginning of 2010 wasn't playing like that guy from Atlanta. He was playing like an MVP candidate. Everyone was praising how Andy Reid turned him into a real quarterback. He wasn't an MVP candidate because of his legs. It was because of his arm, and how he protected the football. Once people got NEW TAPE ON HIM HE REVERTED BACK TO THE TURNOVER MACHINE HE WAS IN ATLANTA! Is that a coincidence? You would say no if you truly wanted to be blind of the truth.
    4 Celek blocking or not blocking didn't change the situation as much as you are making it out be. When Celek stayed in teams, sent more and gave over the top safety help. The Eagles called medium to deep routes all the time negating the fact they had Celek and McCoy in blocking more. On a side note the past two seasons Mike Vick himself has been in charge of calling the blocking schemes. He's the one screwing it up! Now when Celek would go out last season he dropped several balls or they skidded off his hands into defenders. It wasn't better when he went out for a pass. In fact it seemed much worse.
    5 You have reached the real problem with choosing Vick and just assuming he's the guy. Vick isn't a quick decision maker with the football nor does he have a quick delivery. Vick due to his size and his poor ability to move in the pocket like Drew Brees make him a liability when it comes to throwing short passes. He needs to make 7 step drops just to see over the line. The Eagles tried to negate the problem by playing a lot of shotgun. Since Mike Vick has been the starter the screen game has become nonexistent, the shuffle pass never works, and the short pass isn't a factor. It's not a coincidence the Red Zone has become a liability as well. Mike Vick and the short pass doesn't work.
    6 I know I'm right and you will begin to understand that Chip Kelly doesn't have a dog in this fight. If Mike Vick plays like he did last training camp, and preseason he most certainly will not be the starting quarterback of the Philadelphia Eagles and he shouldn't be. In fact you can pretty much say Vick's last two preseason performances were horrible. Who can forget that nightmare preseason in 2011?
  • First of all to your over 30 assertion, two words: Tony Gonzalez.

    Secondly, you claim that the guy who wrote the defensive gameplan had a lot to do with it? Quick! Someone get Captain Obvious his cape!

    Third, NEW tape of a guy doing the same thing he'd been doing since high school, namely running to the left? How much tape does a professional football league need to figure out that a lefty will roll left? Quick! Let's get as much tape as we can on RG3!

    Fourth, if there's one thing an ex-offensive linemen KNOWS it's how protection packages influence what DC will try to get away with. You know that whole bit about "burning the blitz", or "punishing the blitz"? That means you getthe ball out of your hand QUICKLY, but as YOU just typed, the Eagles weren't running short routes with Celek and McCoy in. Can't burn the blitz if all the routes are too long. I don't know everything about football, but unless you coach NFL ball, anybody arguing protection WITH ME is WAAAAAAAY out of their depth. Stick to debating that subject with Holly.

    Fifth, it's not my evaluation of Vick you have an issue with. I'm not the guy who re-signed him, or who's going to start him. Take that up with Chip Kelly.

    Sixth, Vick would be hard pressed to have a preseason as bad as last years. Are you saying that you're fine with him starting if his preseason isn't as bad, or are you saying this year his preseason actually has to be good to start?
  • Tony Gonzalez? That's like stating every receiver is Jerry Rice. Even when Crumpler was good he wasn't close to Tony G. Come one now!

    Lets not forget you are the one trying to minimize JJ contribution with some the defense played inspired bull crap. What you know or what you think you know is irrelevant you aren't in the huddle, and you didn't make the calls. We do know Mike Vick was making the line adjustments. Considering so many guys were getting free shots at the guy you would have to be brain dead stupid not to see he wasn't doing a good job at it. Go take another look at the Arizona game for more proof. I don't have a problem with Chip Kelly. I like the fact he is making Vick EARN THE STARTING JOB AND NOT GIVING IT TO HIM LIKE YOU PEOPLE THINK HE IS. Finally if Vick is playing well in practice and preseason and he beats out the other guys I have repeatedly stated I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HIM AS QUARTERBACK. Why you ask? As I have stated before HE EARNED IT. With that being the case I also don't have a problem benching him or any of these other quarterbacks if they are failing to get the job done. Chip Kelly has told us over and over again he doesn't have a preference and he just wants to win. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
  • First, NO ONE can minimize the contribution of the architect.
    Second, knowledge is NEVER irrelevant. You didn't design a single NFL logo, but you can spot your team's at a glance. No I wasn't in the huddle, but I know protection schemes when I see them. At a glance.
    Third, if Vick was so bad at calling the protections, someone over his head should have stepped in instead of watching him drown.

    Lastly, it's not that I don't understand what Kelly is saying; it's that I don't BELIEVE what Kelly is saying. And apparently neither do you:
    "If the Eagles believe that then why resign Vick? I see it, and most fans do as well. Most fans want Vick gone, and are only settling for the guy cause they think he fits Chip Kelly's system. Keeping Vick sends mixed messages to what the Eagles are trying to do here."

    You typed that. About an hour ago.

    Seems to me if Vick REALLY had to compete, Kelly would have brought in a guy capable of making him sweat. This has become a situation where Vick doesn't have to outplay anybody. As long as he doesn't look bad in a new offense, he'll get the start.

    The whole thing is farce! It would be more straightforward to just name him the starter today.
  • The thing is I believe the Eagles believe they can compete now. That's why they resigned Vick. They don't think they are rebuilding. For some odd reason they are trying to get it now. I do agree that if they saw Vick struggling they should have stepped in, but they had a problem. Dallas Reynold was their new center. They didn't want to burden that sorry sap with anything more than blocking. He barely did that well. The truth is they got rid of Jamaal Jackson too early. He used to be responsible for the blocking calls, and he was highly
    effective. With that being the case it doesn't take away from the fact Vick struggled making those calls. Vick struggled making a bunch of calls. If Chip Kelly is indeed lying (I don't think he is, because he has no reason to) then like you wrote just name Vick the starter and call it a day. Better yet don't get on a plane with the entire front office to go see a quarterback. Better yet don't have 5 quarterbacks on your roster! The FACT he hasn't named Vick the starter tells you EVERYTHING you need to know about the situation. Vick won't be the starter unless he proves he can do the job. You haven't answered the question. If Vick struggled like he did last season in the preseason and in camp to figure out this offense do you honestly believe he will be the starter if the other guys are outplaying him?
  • Citing your condition of Vick stinking up the preseason:

    If they draft a QB then no, I think you have to bench Vick.

    If the QB's on roster don't change, then I think he still starts Vick.

    Look, if Kelly is FORCED to start one of the others due to injury, nobody can blame him. On the other hand if Kelly puts out a guy who tanks when the real action starts, and Vick is on the bench in favor of Dixon, or Kinne, then people (fans/media) are going to question Kelly's savvy for evaluating offensive talent. That's a shot he can ill afford early on, coming in here hailed as a genius, and an innovator of offense. There is no dishonor in goofing on a veteran QB.
  • Cunningham, Mcnabb and Vick were all victims of their superior athletic ability. Players and coaches expected them to be able to win games with that ability rather than maxing out on the field or out-coaching the opposition. It's the "stand and watch" syndrome.

    Hopefully, Kelly utilizes the talent and gets everyone involved.
  • That's the obvious plan if u go by what Kelly ran at Oregon. The only question is if Vick can keep getting up after the hits he's gonna take. It's not so much the knock out shot I'm worried about it's the wear on an aging qb who's been hurt n hit a ton before. This leads me to think more n more we will see geno smith in an eagles jersey next year brought along slowly learning from watching Vick. Hey maybe he gets booed on draft day n has a similar career to dmac just with a different ending.

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